007: Dr. Pottinger Challenges the World to #COVIDreset

Dr. Paul Pottinger.
The 007 of Infectious Disease, and Brianna's long time infectious disease doctor, is the Director of Infectious Diseases at University of Washington, and Foreword author of the book Loving Someone Who Is Dying.

Dr. Pottinger takes some time out of his busy schedule to catch up and offer transparency and comfort amidst the current global pandemic. 

In our talk, Dr. Pottinger challenges the community to come together in order to help us create a better tomorrow, by encouraging everyone to #COVIDreset.

Here's our chat. 

Dr. Pottinger's Rock Climbing Blog: Pottinger.net

RECORDED: April 24, 2020

Podcast Email: Podcast@ChooseYourAttitude.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to Choose Your Attitude, Create Your Life, a podcast inspired by Brianna Owenscraft. A superhuman. A hero who showed the world what it's like to live life to the fullest. Diagnosed at age 3, she dragged around cystic fibrosis and later a fetsky super bug, not letting anything get in the way of fulfilling a life someone could only dream of. A death sentence of age 13. She packed a full life legacy that her body just couldn't keep up with. After 29 years of life in May 2017, her journey was over. But her legacy continues and is followed by Manny. Her widower and author of Loving Someone Who Is Dying lives off her inspiring story in hopes to help others live such a full and inspiring life. Anne is the energy behind this podcast. In her own words, choose your attitude. And now, here's your host, Nicholas Strand.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Choose Your Attitude Podcast. In today's podcast, episode seven, I sit down with a hero of mine, someone I look up to dearly, Mr. Paul Pottinger, the 007 of infectious disease. No coincidence, he's episode seven. Dr. Paul Pottinger is the director of infectious disease at UW Medical Center and was Brianna's voice of reason, interpreter to the ever-almighty invisible superbug Obsessus. He was our sense of control in the uncontrollable battle, the lifeline, if you will. What sets him aside from the others outside of his amazing bedside manner was his way with words, his deep thought and understanding for how his patients feel. Brianna struggled to find doctors that could find a rational middle ground between the science and the mental state of their patients. But Dr. Pottinger became Brianna's hero, as near the end it took little effort for the two to come up with a game plan, as they both cohesively worked so well together as they teamed up to one up the superbug. Many times in the clinic, we would take a minute to do a quick round table of catching up with our lives. Paul's an avid climber, many times making trips around the world to climb to the highest peak, something that seemed to come so natural. He would share these stories, one that comes to mind after many weeks of preparation to climb Mount Everest 2015, I remember he set off to successfully conquer his personal drive to overcome the climb of Mount Everest. However, like a mom sending their kid off to school for a patient, it was always a bit of feeling uneasy as you pray he gets back safe. In 2015, as he's camping overnight at one of the camps on the trek up Everest, was the 2015 earthquake that caused the huge avalanche on Everest. He somehow was in the camp just prior to the one that was completely wiped out. Going through that, coming back home safely, we continued on with the battle. Lucky to have him back. He made it back in 2016 to finish his climb. As 2017 began, it was when Brianna's health began to decline and it became our lifeline once more. Reaching out to him a couple of times as a voice of reason between Brianna's strong will to live and the reality of what was happening. After Brianna passed, he spoke at Brianna's celebration, a climb up Mount Elbrus in Russia, the highest mountain in Europe. He wrote about his climb, sharing how Brianna left a lasting impression in his heart. Fast forward to now, staying in close contact, almost three years after Brianna's passing, he has written the forward to my book Loving Someone Who is Dying. With the release party planned, he was scheduled to come speak at it. However, after being sent home from the Zach Brown tour early March because of the coronavirus, he was the first person I reached out to to both discuss postponing the release party and also to record a podcast to speak about the virus. That was back in the first week of March. Excited to meet with me, speaking weekly, we tried and tried to find a day, but his busy schedule would not allow it. We would record a quick episode. Eight weeks later, on an aggressive standby, waiting for an Audible, he was ready. Exhausted, wore out, but still full of hope, wisdom, and strength. We sat down and talked about his current state of mind, how he feels about our current situation, and much like in the doctor's office, asking him the unknowns of the crystal ball, and hopes this helps clear up some answers, provide some clarity of realism, and more importantly, hope. We are going to make it through this because we have Dr. Pottinger on our side as we all launch COVID reset. Ladies and gentlemen, here's our interview with Dr. Pottinger. Thank you. Alrighty, welcome to Choose Your Attitude Podcast. Streaming at podcast.com. Welcome everyone. I'm extremely excited to have Dr. Pottinger, Paul Pottinger, uh, who is uh Brianna's uh infectious disease doctor, um, as well as uh the one who wrote the forward uh for the book Loving Someone Who's Dying. Uh welcome, Dr. Pottinger. How are you? Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

It's I'm tired, but I'm good. I'm happy to uh happy to be here with you.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

For sure. I mean, it it's hard to get out of uh uh COVID because this is the reality of right now. Um, but as a person who uh has Brianna and we we had that journey, um, an avid climber that um in Mount Everest uh with that huge uh avalanche and you inside of that, um just outside of the the actual trauma um and then now COVID and kind of the epicenter of where it all began in uh America. Um I mean, how does how how are you? Tell me how you feel. I mean, like what has been going on?

SPEAKER_02 6:22

I'm ready for a day off, but I'm not gonna get it. That's okay. It's no worries. We're just we're busy out here. So I live in Seattle. I work at University of Washington, and so we were in an interesting position for COVID. I won't talk too much about COVID, but for COVID, yeah, Seattle area. We had the first case in the United States based on some testing that we did. It turned out that we were one of the first places not only to find it, but to probably really have it. And so that gave us a little bit of an edge compared to a lot of the country to get ready. Uh, we we saw it sooner, but we also were able to adapt more quickly. And we've been very blessed that way. I think uh we have lost some life here for sure. I think uh as of today in our state of Washington, more than 700 people have died of COVID. We have more than 12,000 cases. But you know, when I look at our friends back east, uh New York City in particular, I'm actually from New York before, you know, they haven't had 12,000 cases. They've had more than 12,000 deaths due to this infection. So for us, you know, right now we're feeling pretty good about our response and how we've been able to handle it. We still have that big question, what's next and what's it going to look like, and all the big questions that nobody can answer. I'm happy to talk about it, but it's a lot of unknowns. One of the things about infectious disease, it's never boring, and this is one of those times. So in a way, I'm lucky to get to help out in some small fashion.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

So in your mind, uh, I guess right now is is um that scientific mind, uh, you're able to kind of challenge and and uh uh not that this is what you uh uh kind of strive for, you strive more to uh heal and and create and find solution, um, but it's it's one of those things that you are um uh I mean I especially with Brianna, a hero in this. Um, but are are you uh are you finding things uh that that have made you as a as a person uh kind of grow and and at the same time um you know in relation from the Brianna to uh you know the amazing uh Everest avalanche to here, like kind of those connections of you know uh um those traumas.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

Um I appreciate that a lot. You know, it's I think it's a good question. And how do we connect the things in our lives that are difficult? That's what I would say. COVID is difficult. I think climbing Mount Everest, that's difficult. Taking care of Bree, you know, that was difficult. And losing her was extraordinarily difficult. So to me, the things that ties them together, what do I learn? It's just that amazing renewal that I get when I get to interact with people like you and everybody else who's involved in each of these challenging situations. You know, that you're not alone. To me, it's that the only thing that makes me nervous, scared, really, is the idea that I might be alone in a tough time. And I never am. Here, I hear I'm at a university here, so I've got these amazing colleagues, nurses, doctors, pharmacists, the whole team. It really is a team approach to medicine. It's like that, you know, with this epidemic, thousands of people that were worried about big populations. It's like that with an individual patient like Brianna, where I'm working with her, but also her whole family that pulls together. There's this amazing way. It's super inspiring. And it's like that up, you know, 8,000 meter mountain deering, that's the ultimate team sport. And above 8,000 meters, everybody's on the same team. That's the idea. So that's I think what for me maybe draws those things together.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

So, so with Brianna um and and what has happened, um, has there sparked any memories or inspirations um kind of uh like Brianna or such that have kind of uh transpired since uh she's been around and and and kind of um you know, maybe ways that she's maybe influenced you since her passing? Yeah, good question.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

Um yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's that has changed over time for me. Um I wasn't her family member, I was just her doctor, but it felt like a lot more to me. And um so that process of losing her has been very, very difficult. I'm a doctor, I take care of patients for a living. Everybody dies. Eventually, we all pass away, right? In spite of the centuries of medical progress, human mortality is unchanged at 100%. So I'm used to that, right? But in this case, it was different because she was just such a cool person. She was just so inspiring and fun and just super brilliant, and one of those people who's one in a million or one in a billion. And so um, so that initially was very, very difficult. And it still is hard to talk about it, but I would say, yeah, I've tried to incorporate all of the good things that came out of that process into my own practice. You know, I continue to take care of patients who are facing very, very difficult odds and very long chances to survive or to survive in the meaningful way that they want to. And so when I that's hard for me, because I always place myself, what if our roles were reversed? How would I handle that? And I think for Brianna, you know, that's who we would all want to be if we were in that situation, to be that courageous and that inspiring and just confident. She just had a confidence that was extremely unusual. And um, I would hope I'd be half as strong in that situation. So nowadays, when I'm in a tough situation, I'll think back to that. I see it as a source of strength. I really do remember her just not only fondly, but also as an inspiration. I guess that's the way to put it. And uh we all need that, don't we? From time to time. Nowadays, maybe more than ever.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Um, so now that now that we've kind of progressed and uh I reached out uh to write the uh forward for the book, um, and and you know, kind of seeing that project. Um you've been super busy uh with all this now that this has popped up. So I I know that you you haven't had much of a chance to uh kind of sit down and kind of take it all in. Um, but how is that kind of uh what kind of feelings has that brought up? And and um, you know, now that you you kind of see this stuff forming and um you know putting that into a book uh you know that will forever be written, um, you know, about you know, kind of what we're seeing as um I I've been trying to stay away from a hero because she is a hero, but she was one of those that didn't want that, you know, the the uh um recognition because she was just natural at it. Um so but being able to write about her in that sense, um, you know, how does that what kind of feelings does that bring up?

SPEAKER_02 13:08

All the all sorts of feelings. I think it's really interesting too what you just said as well about you know, to be a hero. No one calls themself a hero. If they do, the one thing you know they're not is a hero. So that's very typical, I think, for the inspiring people in our lives, in our society, the people we look to as role models and say, I just wish I could be that person. I wish I could have that strength. If I have kids, I want them to grow up to be like that person. And, you know, she had exuded that just naturally in every pore, right? So for me to write about it, it's very, very helpful. I really uh it's a very difficult process, drums down, and yet uh I think that is really important, isn't it, for all of us. Writing is storytelling. You know, before the written word stories were told hand to ear by mouth to ear, right? That oral tradition of history, and now we have the ability to write it down. What's so cool is that it comes out of your mind into your fingertips on a keyboard, it ends up in this beautiful book, which I have right here. It's like just so awesome to have that. And and I like I like the permanence of it. I like the fact that it's archived and it's there because it doesn't matter how much longer I may be lucky to survive. You know, anybody can come along and see that and say, hey, here's somebody who was special. Let's read about her life. Let's see what her husband said, let's see what all of her family members said. And I think that inspiration just lives on. But for me to be part of that, super inspiring and really therapeutic. I like that process of writing. It's just sort of a cathartic thing. It's part of the grieving process for me. And uh I just I really appreciate the chance to participate.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

I love that. Um it it is pretty crazy to know that you know the Library of Congress has a you know a copy of that. Um and and you know, to have that. But then uh at the same time, uh, you know, that that's kind of like you said, your personal heart. Um, but now to be kind of in the middle of um, you know, kind of what's happening and and higher up, I I know that I saw a couple USA Today uh articles um that actually had interviewed you um and and asked you some questions and such. But um, you know, for me, you you you are a uh you know kind of a hero of that sense to me, um, you know, with the way you've handled things and the and the way you just uh uh as a doctor um overcome uh you know the uh the challenges and such to help um us address, like you said, the um the unchangeable, the the fact that we're all going to head there, but you do what you can to help us um uh to be better. And that that was what was amazing with Brianna. How has that kind of in the struggle and such have you seen a lot of growth in yourself from from what's happening and and what have you kind of taken out of um what's happening right now, um, you know, from yourself?

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Yeah, good question. You know, it's it's a great question. There's not a lot of time for self-reflection. I mean, it's really interesting for me to think about that. I happen to be an infectious disease doctor, so you know, right now we're in the middle of a big epidemic, and my job is to help protect the health of and safety of everybody who works here. So that is what we call infection control, infection prevention. And um and so I've never worked so hard in my life. Most people, I think, in the United States are doing this social distancing thing. I think they're furloughed from work, I think they're bored. And um, just that dichotomy. You know, my family's home. Um, I have two kids, one's in college, one's in high school. They're both studying, but it's online, it's kind of like this on Zoom. And so for them, life has really slowed down. I'm super lucky to be married to an amazing woman. And um, she's a novelist, and her latest novel came out a day or two ago. So she's busy on that side. Um, as you know, launching a book, it's a thing. But even so, uh, their life at home is really slow. And so um they're looking for things to do, they they're not exactly bored, but it's kind of like that. And when I come home, I'm just whipped, tired. And uh, so that's an interesting dichotomy. So I haven't had time to think about what it means. I just need to get through the next day, but I also do have this deep abiding sense of reserve, you know, that I can do this. I can do this. Somebody asked me just today, when was your last day off? I yeah, uh, it's been a long time. So that's fine. It's fine. That's completely fine. It is absolutely okay. We have, I can, I'm hitting my stride. I'm not a marathoner. If I were strong enough to do a marathon, this would be, you know, what you're the way you think about when you're on mile, mile 15 or something. You know, we we've gotta keep doing this. So to me, yeah, thinking about inner reserves, inner strength, and the ability to just keep going. Um sometimes I'm a little nervous to think about where we are because I don't want to get down some dark rabbit hole in my mind. I'd rather just just keep going. What do they say in uh finding Nemo just keep swimming? You know, just exactly.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Yep. Would you say, would you say that there's um, you know, that that's one of my hardest questions that I know I drilled you many times with Brianna of always trying to, you know, figure out what's ahead. Um and and I know that the world right now, um, you know, as as I've learned from that experience and got to write the book and kind of sit back, I've realized, you know, that that is a question that we can't answer because this is something new and such, but um to help, you know, kind of if if there was something to say uh, you know, without getting too uh, you know, doctorate about it, but you know, something to say uh from a professional inside there um that would would give somebody uh a little bit of understanding of um uh the situation um in an overall uh scenario um and and kind of the amazing way you explain these things. Well, I mean, yeah, no, I'm glad to try.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

I mean, first of all, I there's a few things I would want everybody to know. It is unprecedented. Have we been through something like this before as a species? Totally. 1918, almost just over 100 years ago, the world went through something very similar. In fact, in 1918, things were substantially worse because that virus didn't have a predilection to just harm old folks, it was harming all the folks. So we can be through this, we can get through it. We know we can do this, we've got this. We totally have this. As a planet, we're gonna get through it. It's bad. We are losing people every day to this. It's also bad because we're losing our economics, people are not able to work, they can't support their family, that sense of self-confidence and the fabric of our society that makes us who we are, our identity, all of that is threatened. So to me, it's a it's definitely a very serious situation, but we're gonna get through it. I think the only thing that I would want to emphasize is that we just have to have that stamina. If we can really pull together, follow the rules, and do it and not give up and get exhausted after a week or a month. So, your my prediction for this, I think we are very likely to get a good vaccine. It may not be the first one we get, but we're gonna get a vaccine. I think that vaccine is gonna work and it's gonna be very safe, and it will really give us more protection against this infection. That's coming, but it's not coming this week, it's not coming this month. I think there's a 50% chance that we will get a good vaccine by the time we're supposed to go back to school in the fall. 50%, that would be stunningly fast. Most people think I'm crazy. I just see so much energy in this. I think we probably can do it. And if it's not here in the fall, it'll be here a few months later. So for everybody out there who's trying to figure out about their kids, going back to school, maybe college, you know, I think at half term, meaning January of 21, we're probably gonna have a lot more confidence getting people back to school. But before then, I really truly don't know. What I do know is that if we can keep doing some kind of safe practice, we don't, if we don't just try to go back to the way things were, we'll get through this. I think if the way we're gonna get burned is if we get lazy, if we get impatient. If we're impatient and we just try to go back out and do things like we used to. I'm told that in the state of Georgia, at least the news here says that today they just opened up barber shops and massage parlors. Like these are the essential things.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

I don't know how your governor came up with that list. But anyway, the point is please, no matter what. Any particular government official has to say, use your common sense. The virus doesn't care about massage parlors. It just doesn't care. It's not a political thing, it's a biological thing. Please take care of yourselves. Just use your common sense. What we're doing today works. You may need to do that longer than whatever your local government official tells you. That's what I would tell you, especially people who may be out there. Chronic lung disease, especially people living with cystic fibrosis. There is no shortcut. Please, please take care of yourself. That's what I would say.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

It's uh it's amazing. I I um I've thought about it many, many times of um, and and I've explained this to people too. Of one of the hardest challenges I think you had with Brihenna uh was you know the the the in-between of uh you know the doctor and the science, but then also life and normality, um, you know, and in the fact of what it would take to conquer the bug, but then at the same time what it would take for your life. And this is one of those things where uh you know with Brianna, um, it affected herself. So if she went outside, it wasn't affecting others. Where this definitely does affect others, and I and I found that to be interesting because you know, Brianna had to live the way we're living right now. And and here we are, uh uh, you know, she chose many times to walk out bec and become susceptible because she wanted to live, but it was one of those struggles that she had to deal with every day. And now we're here where we're taking this normal way. And um, you know, for a lot of us, we're learning that, you know, our freedoms um are not existent without health. Um, and it's it's uh interesting to watch people kind of you know go through that. Have you seen from your, you know, the the people around you uh a more of a camaraderie and a more of a community as you go through this?

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's definitely a team spirit here. And I I think that's true in most of the country. I can only assume that's the case. And I would just say if you're watching the news, which I don't do because I'm too tired, but I've checked the interwebs once in a while. Yeah, you'll see stories about people who are upset, who are advocating for their their gun rights or something because of the virus. I can't figure it out. Those are the wing nuts. So they will loop large on the internet. There can be a lot of memes about them. They don't represent us. That's not the real heart of America. No, I think Americans mostly mostly get it. That it's suffering for them. They don't like that their livelihood is being ruined, but I think they also understand that their decision for themselves has implications for other people. It's a classic thing that you know that we're all in this together and we're gonna survive as a tribe. We've always been that way. Humans are definitely social creatures, right? If we don't get into something together, we're not gonna make it. And once in a while, there'll be somebody who is ordinary about it or has some kooky idea. They might wear a suit and stand in the White House and say these crazy things, but they don't represent us. Most people know that we are a team, that we're connected to each other. And I see that out here in Seattle totally. Oh my gosh. The drive I drive to work every day to the hospital, it usually takes me 20, 20 minutes. I'm here in six minutes flat. There is nobody out there. People are totally abiding by people. And I don't see because people are really taking this seriously. And I'm I'm hopeful that's true in most other places where your viewers are watching.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Yeah, I I um I see it. So I I on one of the episodes I talked with a friend about you know grief, and I and I've seen a lot of people kind of uh uh, you know, because this is much like being diagnosed with, like when Brianna was diagnosed with obsesses or when my mom was diagnosed with cancer, it kind of relates to the same idea. Um, and so I I can see you know some of those people that are frustrated or or don't feel uncomfortable, they're you know, they may be in one of those scenarios because uh they don't know how to handle those feelings, um, which is a lot because you know, I especially know me being in the doctor's office with you. Um, you know, Brianna had that sense of, you know, now is what it's about. It's not about what's gonna happen tomorrow. It's not about what happened yesterday, it's about what happened today. And um, I know I was always trying to, you know, reach ahead um and try to, you know, find that timeline and dig that information when it wasn't there. Um, and and I think that's what's best right now is is that sense of what I'm hearing is is is patience, um, but also the confidence that we're not alone and that there's a whole world behind this. Um, and and uh, you know, even though we're uncomfortable, becoming comfortable and that uncomfortable is is you know a solid thing. Um Hey, no, I I'm with you.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

And I feel like one of the things about what you're resonates with me about what you're saying is this is a hardship. This the epidemic is a hardship. And yeah, I'm an American person, um, happen to live on the West Coast, but I'm an American guy. So it's hardship for me, it's hardship for my family, it's a hardship for everybody. And one of the things about this that's so interesting is the reason it's a hardship is because it's a change, right? It's just different. And we as a species have an expectation for what's going to happen. What is my future? What's my expectation for tomorrow? What's my expectation for what happens after lunch or next year? We're we're planners. We are definitely cognitive people. It's because we've got these big, fat, juicy brains and we use them like crazy. And all of a sudden, when things change, our expectations are not met. For us, at least in the United States, that is a huge issue. You know, I am so lucky to get to work in other parts of the world and to travel a lot. Um, I work in Africa, in Tanzania, uh, every year. And, you know, it's such a great experience for us because I learned so much when I'm there. And the physicians, the nurses are brilliant, the students are amazing, and the the people are just so interesting. And um, you know, their expectation is different. They are also people who ours, they have expectations, they have their own ambitions for sure, but their daily experience is different from what most of us in the United States would say. And I think this is a hardship for us, but it is such a small you compare your life to the lives of most people on our planet, it is not, it is not the same. We are so fortunate to live in the United States, even with all the issues, all the ugliness, all the ridiculousness that we deal with, and all of these hardships, which are real hardships, at the end of that day, we're still so lucky. Most of us still have access to information, access to shelter, access to food, safety. Most of us are still so fortunate that way. So I hold on to that. Uh that's my job, is to get us through this so you guys can all come back in and stay healthy and do your thing. But that's just a simple humble reminder that in a way we really are all very, very fortunate with what we got.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

At the end of this, do you have any uh big uh rock climbs or uh uh goals to kind of get yourself away from this?

SPEAKER_02 29:16

Uh I don't know. I haven't been outside in months. I I'm so eager to get out. I bet you the mountains are looking great too. Yeah, they look beautiful out my window. Uh I don't have anything. Uh yeah. Yeah. I was planning this. Yeah, I had a whole bunch of things lined up for the summer climbs in the American West. They're all off now, right? So we'll get some together. Doesn't matter how many mountains you climb, there are always exponentially more out there. So I'll never get bored.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

Um, yeah, Earth is definitely uh happier right now. And I I think we're learning a lot um as as as we just stop. Um if I was to ask you, probably the biggest thing that you think we're gonna gain from this, um, you know, like in my head, I I keep thinking, you know, especially with Brianna, um, you know, the obsesses, you know, science, science is science. So it's always interchanging. Um, and and some of these drugs that we get sometimes are meant for one thing, but actually help something else. Um, even to the sense of, you know, uh people kind of stuck in a spot and time slowing down, um, what have you maybe seen and what would you say that we might be able to pull out from this? Um, you know, as you know, something uh solid? Yeah, it's I I love that question.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

Yeah, it's great. I think it's so cool because you know, my the quick answer, the easy answer for me is as a doctor, I'm hoping when we're done with this, that people are gonna be better about not spreading other infections. COVID's rotten, but what about flu? What about rhinovirus, all the cold and flu season stuff? All that stuff really is spread from people to people because we're not careful with our hand hygiene. We don't filter our sneezes. I think there's a chance for a heightened awareness. So people take care of themselves, don't go to work when you're sick. I mean, that's a it's just selfish, short-sighted thing. So for me, that part uh is easy. I think um we'll see if it comes true. I think my bigger perspective is um, yeah, I there's a lot of talk about red states and blue states, and I think there's a lot of shades of purple, is the way I would say it. I think this is really showing us that there's a common ground. The way this epidemic has been handled at a federal level, there are some very good people who have tried, but it has been mostly bungled. There will be a day of reckoning, and that day of reckoning is the first Tuesday of November, by the way. So just because we if we don't all have to agree on everything, that's not the American way, and I wouldn't want to live here if we did. That'd be boring. I would just observe that we're all in the same boat, so we might as well row in the same direction. Let's just pick a destination. My vision, let's go someplace that's safe and healthy and prosperous, like these three things. The safe, healthy, and prosperous society. We we we're not going that way right now. As we got into this epidemic, leadership in our country has been against every one of those things, every one of them. So I just say let's let's make it safe, healthy, and prosperous when we're done. I think our society should be one that is willing to pull in the other free and open societies of the world. Let's not build a wall and push people towards Russia and China. I mean, that's ridiculous. Let's bring people together. Let's get organized around health. We could have a world health organization. Think about that, a WHO. And instead of cutting off our funding, we would actually fund it. We would lead it, we would, we would cooperate with people. I mean, I have these utopian ideas. I don't want me to be too sassy, but I really do think COVID is a chance for us to say, hey, this sucks. How'd we get here? Not just so we can punish and blame the people who did it, although they damn well need to be punished, but also so we can say, let's let's start again. I think we should eat less animals. I'm not vegan, by the way, but I do admire the vegan ethos. Let's eat less animals, let's burn less fuel, let's try to just chill the F out and reproduce less and consume less and maybe keep some of this COVID experience with us and the good parts of it.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

I I think I think you make a good point. And I think one of the biggest things that I've definitely learned and I've tried to share in the message is um, and and I think that's somewhere where the anger I think comes from in some people realizing this, um, but that we take for granted our life so much. And it's very rare that for us, I know you've been super busy, so you haven't had the uh the the time to be able to do this. Um, but most of us right now are having to realize that uh, you know, without life, you know, I I I've said there's not even freedom because freedom takes two people standing next to each other to be associated. Um and without life and humanity, right um, that is that is not possible. And especially in like Brianna's case, where she was born with this disease, and it was this infectious cycle of having to work to get insurance to help her with health, so that way she was healthy enough to work to pay for the insurance to keep her healthy. And it's one of those things, like you said, if if we were to work together and and help each other, in the long run, it would actually be, I think, less effort and less expensive um if if we would do less of a fight and actually did the help, um, if if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

I think it makes perfect sense. We have been we've got a government that's been trying to chip away at healthcare access since day one. And now all of a sudden people are realizing that investing in health is actually cheap. If we had just cut this stupid epidemic off, think of all the trillions, trillions of dollars we could have saved. That's the problem with healthcare, health insurance. You know, it's this sort of thing people don't want to invest in until they actually need it, and then it's too late. You're quite right. Uh, that's my observation as well. I mean, I've dedicated my life to be a healer for that, for that reason. And, you know, I really do hope we come out of this being a little bit more thoughtful, a little more humble. It should be a very much uh a humbling opportunity for our species. There's some things we cannot control, but there are some things we can. So when we're given an unprecedented challenge that we rise up and do it in a way that it's gonna cost us, but it's gonna be worth it. So we'll see. We'll find out. I don't know. I heard they're selling oil for negative dollars something, and I think it's just a chance for us to say maybe what we were doing before was kind of crazy. Let's hit the reset button. COVID reset. Make a hashtag of it. I promise you, COVID reset. We just I just came up with that right hashtag COVID reset. That's what we're doing. Yep, and our society's gonna come through even stronger.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

I love it. I like it. I like that. Um, I will definitely uh uh get that going. And um, I think we might even put that on the the name of uh our little episode here. Um I I think the very last question I'll ask you uh is is uh or going to Brianna um a little bit, uh she created that quote, uh choose your attitude, create your life. Um and I've been asking people what that means to you um and and how you kind of interpret that. Um and and I've been anxious to kind of hear that from you because um you you like I said, you're kind of a hero in my eyes, and um, you know, the way you explain things are so uh, you know, uh uh I guess I'd say poetic or uh uh well thought out um you know from your intelligence. But how does how does that make you uh you know that that quote, how do how do you interpret that and how does that you know make you feel?

SPEAKER_02 37:00

I mean, I the reason I love that concept is it's so um it just gives you agency. It's about choice and creation, right? Yeah, it's not about whining, it's not about complaining, it's not about being passive. It's take the initiative, take control, and make a better attitude. When you do, you're gonna make a better life. I mean, that it in itself, it describes what's so great about it. And I think it's is it so true? If we are waiting for something good to happen to us, I mean, I guess you could find a brick in the street made of gold, but it's not gonna happen. It's all about take the initiative, take control. The world is full of huge challenges and tragedy and things that are gonna make you mad. And if you're not angry, it means you're not paying attention. And Brianna knew that, right? But she also said, let's choose to do not to be not to ignore that, let's choose how we're gonna respond. Let's respond and not in an angry way or selfish way or sticking our head in the sand. Choose your attitude and create your life. I mean, it's it's absolutely inspiring. And I think anybody who reads the book will definitely just be bathed in that great energy that came from her. And it's it's wise. And it's something that I think I could certainly use in my own life. I something I aspire to. I'm not always good at it, but it's something that helps to guide me through my daily routine. And that's what I want in my family and my kids as well. It's an important ethos, right? It's a worldview that I think is so um inspiring and definitely something that I want to try to model myself after.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

I love it. Um, is there anything uh on your mind that you'd like to kind of address or uh kind of pull out or um any subject matter that we want to approach?

SPEAKER_02 38:52

I mean, I'm full of I'm full of something, ideas and other things, ideas and opinions. No, I would just say I just I really appreciate the chance to talk with you because you know, we those of us who love someone, and I do in my life, I have people that I love too. And what would happen if the unthinkable were to happen and I were to lose some of those people? Well, I would hope I would do half as well as you have, Nick, trying to just to honor that legacy and have these conversations, writing this book. It's such a beautifully written book, really beautifully written. And um, I just think that's a a model for how all of us should try to honor us we love. And we don't have to wait till they die, of course. Uh, but the way you've chosen to do this, I think is just amazing. And so I just want to say thanks for doing that.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

Thank you. Um appreciate it. Um, it means the world. I'm trying to pull back the tears um and the feelings. But um, no, thank you uh for that. And um, you know, it's it's my blessing is is um if I was to say a gift back to me is is by doing this and hearing those type of things, it's actually helping me um lift myself up. Um and so it's it's it's once again with this whole community thing, it's a very infectious thing to be able to help and give to the community and yet at the same time have that energy of me giving be what's actually fueling me to keep going in my in the absence of Brianna, in the absence of you know my mom. So um thank you for that. And I I do gotta say, uh, you know, verbally, you know, thank you for you know everything you have done for Brianna for helping me with the book. Um and you know, hopefully uh once COVID kind of slows down, uh we will definitely have a uh the release party and um hopefully have you on again and um you know get a little bit deeper into you know Brianna and um you know health and uh you know the exciting things that are happening. So I look forward to all that.

SPEAKER_02 40:55

It all sounds sounds great.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

I appreciate it. Thanks so much for joining everybody. Uh choose your attitude podcast. Don't forget to come visit us at chooseyourattitude.com, where you can find more info about the mission as well as choose your attitude apparel, along with the books Loving Someone Who's Dying and the Illustration Quotes on the Fridge. If you have any questions or ideas for the show, please email us at podcast at chooseyourattitude.com, as we are always excited to hear from you. Don't forget to come follow us as Facebook and Instagram at ChooseAttitude Create Life. Thanks for listening. As always, choose your attitude, create your life.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

Thanks for listening to Choose Your Attitude, Create Your Life. If you like what you just heard, we hope you'll pass along our web address and podcast, chooseyourattitude.com, to your friends and colleagues. If you have a specific topic or question you want Nick to answer or address, or if you want to recommend someone amazing to be on the show, please visit our website and leave your recommendation under our podcast page. While you're there, please leave us a positive review. Be sure to check out our archive section on our website for previous podcasts. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Join us next time for another edition of Choose Your Attitude, create your life.