010 : Let's Talk About Racism

After the horrible events of George Floyd and then the protests following, I reached out to Bryce Smith, a friend of mine, to help try and create a deeper understanding of racism, and where as a white man I could/can do better.

I was taken back when he confronted me for reaching out, but as I listened to Bryce wholeheartedly, it was then made clear to me Bryce's frustration and hurt. Something I could never truly comprehend as a white male.

We had many conversations regarding current events and racism, and as our talks continued, we felt it was important to make it an episode in our podcast and share what we were unpacking, discovering, and coming to realize. 

We discuss with another guest (and friend!) Ben Valdez about breaking down the construct of racism and our current status, today. 

Here's our chat. 

Bryce Smith : @BryceWillardSmithe

Ben Valdez :  @Ben.Valdez.5249

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Let's step back a little. Take a look inside our true self. Get comfortable and the uncomfortable. And let's embrace the reality. Life is tough. But so are you. Welcome to the Choose Your Attitude podcast with Nicholas Strange. Join Nick, the author of loving someone who's dying as he shares his experiences of lifeless to life on the road as a traveling roadie. In his guests will get into real topics while encouraging you to let go of the past, lift up the present, and seriously build your better tomorrow. Let's get through this together. Now, here's your host, Nick Strand.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Hey, welcome to the Choose Your Attitude Podcast, where we discuss real life stuff, learn to master the only aspects we can control in life, and use it as a tool to make today the best day of your life. Every morning we wake up with a choice to make. What attitude are you going to create your life with today? We chat with people of all walks of life, people sharing their own stories and tips of some of life's most difficult journey. There is no proper way to do this correctly besides talking about it and walking through the process, no matter how difficult it may be. So let's train the elephant in the room together, but first, a word from our sponsors. Are you looking for some much-needed motivation? Maybe a new way to feel inspired. We know that life is tough, but so are you. Finding that perfect shirt you've been dreaming of is a tough journey. But we have you covered. That's why we are here with Choose Your Attitude Apparel. Wear with confidence and remind yourself you're choosing a way to success. It is a constant reminder that you can share with others. Join the Choose Your Attitude community and share an attitude of style that others will want to be a part of. So get yours now at chooseyourattitude.com. Would you like to be a sponsor on the Choose Your Attitude Podcast? Reach out to us at podcast at chooseyourattitude.com. Today my guest is Bryce Smith and Ben Valdez. Ben Valdez is a mental therapist and Bryce is a good friend of mine. After the horrible events of George Boyd and the protest, I reached out to Bryce to help try to create a deeper understanding of racism and aware as a white man I could do better. I was taken aback when he confronted me for reaching out. But as I listened and understood, it was clear. In our talks, we felt it was very important to create an episode about this topic. Here's our chat as we discuss and try to break down the construct of racism and our current status. Alrighty, welcome everybody to choose your attitude uh podcast. I am excited to have Ben Valdez, uh substance uh youth disorder professional, and uh Bryce Smith, uh social justice warrior. Welcome to the show, guys. Um so I wanted today we wanted to talk about kind of some of the uh events going on right now, um, the social uh uh kind of inadequacy uh inadequacy of uh you know everything combined uh from starting with COVID, but more so deeper into uh you know the racial infrastructure that just kind of popped up. Um I want to read one thing real quick to kind of get us started and then uh go from there. So I wrote this as says hate is our defense mechanism to help us retreat back to feeling safe and comfortable because we may not understand something completely. Love takes work, trust, vulnerability, learning, the ability to step outside your comfort zone in order to grow and build. Love is the greater reward here. There is no easy way to build trust without an extreme amount of empathy, compassion, and challenging yourself to learn others' perspective before you feel your own. We forget people who are asking for help are asking because no one has no one has yet to see their struggle and they themselves have exhausted all their own efforts to find safety. There is no right way to ask, but rather there is accepting the problem and working towards a solution. We are oftentimes too quick to judge people for how they ask for help, an unintentional act of putting yourself before others. When being asked for help, do the work and help, they are asking for help, not you. Put trust out there, put effort out there. We don't always know the answer, but that's okay. If we stop putting up our defense mechanism to retreat to safety and just listen, break down our own walls and feel uncomfortable, the solution may be easier than the resistance we cause. The power is within. Challenge yourself to find it. You are the solution, you're going to do the work. So here we are doing that work to kind of break things down. Um I think the first thing I want to talk about is kind of uh Bryce and I uh when when all this happened when George Floyd got killed uh by the police officer with his knee down. Um, for me as a white man, um, I was trying to kind of learn uh a little bit more about my stance as a white person and trying to learn to do better. And Bryce was that person that I reached out to. Um and one of the big things that Bryce and I kind of came to as we had our probably an hour and a half, I think it was almost two-hour conversation, um, is it wasn't until he kind of got on me for uh, you know, why am I asking a black man uh how to learn about this? And it wasn't until I was able to connect that to my own experience of uh, you know, my own grief and my own uh calls for help and struggling to be able to uh uh you know ask for that or bring that help in because every single time you ask, you kind of get pushed away. Um so with that, I guess what I want to do is I want to talk about all this together. Um and I think from that, I think maybe I'll I'll send it over to you, Bryce, of of you know, kind of your feelings from everything I've just said, and then also, you know, maybe a quick standpoint um that you know kind of some of the thoughts going in your head right now.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Yeah, so um so I guess the first thing I I want to say is like, you know, it was it was it was a weird experience for me. You weren't the only person that reached out, uh, you know, kind of trying to understand how to process this. And, you know, innately like my my first response was like I said, you know, the first thing I said to you on the phone was before I go down this road with you, I want you to know that this isn't my responsibility. Um I'm willing to do it out of compassion because I care about you, but um, this this is not my responsibility. And I think that um this is a really trying time because there's just kind of these levels of struggle that are being exposed. And you know, it's not really as much about one level being uh worse. Um it's more about meeting people where they are and then you know, standing in other people's shoes to experience their pain and then comparing that to the world that we live in. Um and I think doing that objectively, it takes a degree of selflessness, like you have to step outside of yourself. Um, but I think that objectively doing that is the best way for us to really understand how to process the situation. Because in our own shoes, you know, well not in our own shoes, but in the shoes of a white man, um there's a lot of pieces that are missing when we're talking about this pain. Um there's a lot of things, not only pieces that are missing from real-world experience, but pieces that were just simply not taught to you. Um essentially, there's a guise that has been painted over reality uh in America and not just America, but across the world, um, because we want, we don't want to do the work. Like you said, we don't want to feel the suffering that comes from exposing ourselves to the realities that are actually present um in their entirety outside of us, um, especially because we have our own pain and we have our own suffering. It feels really quickly like, yes, I get it, someone else is experiencing pain, but what about me? When am I gonna be heard? Especially when you don't feel like you're being heard in your own experience as a white person who's supposedly benefiting from privilege, and this system is built for you, but it doesn't feel like you're benefiting. So it's like, you know, where when am I gonna be heard? Um, and yeah, it's it's really about stepping out of yourself um and recognizing that it's not about you, frankly, existing is not about you, you know. Um you interject.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

I was gonna say, I I think um kind of touching base of what you were saying there, I think I think one of the most difficult struggles that I had, and I I think that society is having right now, and I I think you kind of said it here too, is is um, you know, at the end of the day, we're all animals, and so there's some instinctual pieces. And so what I'm learning as life kind of goes on is that when you don't have the information, all you can do is you can compare. And if you don't have the information to compare, you sometimes have a hard time to believe. And with the way our education system has created, it has made it to where we we don't understand those things. Um, and so you know, for example, like you know, uh one of the big things I learned is like uh or just learned just now is like you know, Martin Luther King. You know, we we learn about him being this wonderful human being, which he was, but it wasn't that effort that actually is what actually made the changes that he was working for, it was these protests. And so I guess what I'm getting by that is is in our extremes of our minds, it's very difficult to uh uh request empathy in such a very strong area because some that request itself is such an uncomfortable that you really have to like sit inside and and um do what you can to pull back those reactions so that way you can actually feel. Um I guess Ben, is is there do you have something kind of that you're you're hearing within all that?

SPEAKER_03 11:30

Or um, I guess one of the things that I would say is um when we're talking about empathy, empathy is so very important. Um, it's also very difficult for people who have their defense mechanisms up so high to even allow themselves to even experience what another person's experiencing. And then um, when people have these differing agendas and it's causing so much conflict, um, the defenses are elevated and it just creates a bunch of anger. And um it's it's not right. Structurally, it's um the structures within society is completely one-sided, and it's um manipulated people to just um benefit the white population, which is not okay. And um, there's structural changes that have to be made, and um, it's being shown, and it's awesome that it's finally being shown to the magnitude that it is because it's it needs to happen. You know, it's very it's not fair in society.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Yeah, I think that there's um I think that there's a deeper lesson behind all this that's that's extends beyond race. Um because this really is a conversation about pain and a and a battle between um love and power. And there are people who feel that with without the power, they're thrown into the abyss, and they there's an innate lack of trust in the universe. Um I I experienced this like I I didn't have a really you know uh stable upbringing. Uh my mom did the best that she could, but it was like you know, single mom, two kids, um, and she's like working all the time to support us. So like I didn't have that type of stability um and that that source of re reaffirmation to go to. So I had to find from the universe, from my community, like a sense of security. Um, and I think that a lot of people don't really have that even with the stability, like they don't have the money. I mean, they have the money and they have like the setup, but there's still this lack of um feeling like they are secure and like they are uh significant. And it's you know, they're tied to the system where they feel stable, so it's like maybe that's not very important. And so it's on the subject of empathy, it's hard to it's hard to have that empathy when that's not the base that you're coming from. You know, it's that's never something you need, you don't have to trust the universe to survive, you know. Um so then asking those people jump off, you know, jump off of that base of power that you're standing on, jump into the abyss and trust that love is out there and that you're gonna survive and you know and thrive, not only survive, but thrive and have more security than you could have, then money could have ever brought you. Um so I think that there's uh you know, that's one of the systems that's that's really broken and an illusion that's being cast over everyone. But it's also the case that from that position, um people with the most power project outward that you want to keep standing on the platform to people who don't have a lot of power, but just more power than someone else. Um, so there's a lot of people who are lower income, underprivileged, that are white, that are don't feel as if they're even benefiting from the system of power, but still don't understand why they should jump off into the abyss and trust that they're gonna be safe, you know, and that love is out there. Um, so the system is perpetuating itself, like the system of power is feeding itself from the top down because it's not about race, it's about money, you know, money equals power. Um, so it's just trickling down. So everyone on the surface believes that they need to be at that place of power, which is why it's really important to target people that are on the fence, because those people, at least, you know, who are at the very bottom of the rung of power, are at least like, well, maybe there's something to gain. You know, if I'm if I'm at my lowest, then why do I stand aloof from jumping off the abyss, jumping off into the abyss? Um yeah, there's a lot of illusions being cast on us that are that are detrimental to um to us as a whole as a society thriving from love, which is what love is there for, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

I I think I think you yes, um one of one of the big things that that I heard in there um is is that whole comfort and control. Um it's the word I use is funny, but just that in itself is a comfortable word using to basically replace the uncomfortable feeling. Um, but when when this whole thing kind of started for me is as far as choose your attitude with death, and death is very uncomfortable, and a lot of people do not like to discuss that. And like in this right here, um this is very uncomfortable, and we like to go into comfortable, and like you said, comfortable is a form of control. Um, if you're in a comfortable state, you're a lot more confident in the control you have over your environment. However, if you are not comfortable, you are not in control, you are you are not as as confident, and so all of a sudden your barriers start to go up. And especially in this, because one of those things that I um, as you were discussing this, is um the whole kind of uh feeling offended. Um uh the extreme that I would use is uh you know, white people feeling like the black community is being racist back to them because it's the white person's issue. Well, that it's it's tough because there's not one person to blame, it's a society. Um but that is exactly the issue here is that these feelings come up and we have to be able to understand them or uh uh acknowledge them uh because they are uncomfortable. And so what we have to do, especially when we're uh being kind of told that we're the one responsible for that feeling that we're uncomfortable with, um it's very important that we do what we can to hold back the instinct to put the wall up and just react. And I think that was one thing that you and I, when we were talking about this, I had to break through. Um, and and I I feel bad that I had to have a personal experience to be able to relate it to. Um but that was one thing that I had to break through is feeling offended for something that I hadn't done, but being able to come over that and understand from a full uh uh like you said on the outside, um and get inside that uncomfortable feeling to be able to, you know, find that uh um the understanding. Um yeah. Become comfortable with being uncomfortable, um, where we we're kind of coming back to that again, where it's you know, the uh Ben and I did an episode on that of you know becoming comfortable in the uncomfortable. Um and uh uh you know, one of those things I want to put in there too is I think this is where it's very difficult too, is when you're uncomfortable, um, one of the most guaranteed ways to push somebody away or to push somebody back is using hate. And unintentionally sometimes you do that, not even realizing you're doing that. But I feel like that's where we're at right now because we are so deep into a feeling. So, first off, when you know the black community comes to the white community in a comfortable spot and says there's an issue, and it's your society that's the issue, and all of a sudden you feel offended, so you become uncomfortable and you get into a reaction, and what's happening is I feel like the white community gets into that reaction of pushing hate back without even taking a pause to really understand. And so, again, what's happening is people's personal feelings are deflecting the actual understanding of the situation, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

Yeah, so um, so I'm a fire performer, as you know. Um, something that I realized recently, it's kind of funny. Um, whenever you're whenever you're doing something so high stakes like that, you go into a state of flow, which is this place in between action and reaction. So there's no there's no time in the middle, you know. Um it's just it's just a con it's just consistent. A good example of this is when you are um singing and you or you're um you know uh cooking or something, you get into a state of flow. Um, and this just means that before you think about it, uh you you are able to do things that defy the laws of time, essentially. Um there's there's no period of thinking, there's not a second, you know.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Kind of like autopilot.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

Exactly. And it's it's one of our one of our greatest strengths as humans because we can in this time, for example, with fire spinning, I can do I don't know how many tricks in under a second, because it's not um time does not uh confine your capacity to move or or do when you're in this space, kind of like time travel. But while this is a a tool that we can use, it's also a defense mechanism. Um, you know, whenever you're trying to have a conversation with someone. About this, and they get on you know defensive, um, often you'll get like a or like an eye roll or some action. And in that brief moment, they are able to deflect and find a fodder, something to get in the way of them actually processing or the thing actually getting through, um, which is a tool that does it stops them from having to get vulnerable. Um, so people will use this flow, they'll go with this flow and it it like just blocks them. It's like a it's like a shield, it feels uh filters out the ability for them to receive uh this knowledge that can be healthy. Arguably that some of it is sublimated in, you know, some of it gets through, but it's not a conscious choice for them to process this information. And it's unfortunate because vulnerability is our greatest strength. You know, it's uh it's like a muscle, it's not all it's not immediately super strong, but you have to tear it. You have to you have to expose that part of yourself, you have to hurt. And um, and it's a good hurt because the more times you find yourself being torn by that vulnerability, the stronger you are at being vulnerable. You know, you can put yourself out there with more ease and uh and not be afraid of rejection, but um but seek it to some extent because it it helps you know grow from that point.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

I I um exactly it it's the it's the confidence in feeling uncomfortable or out of or or not in control of the situation. Um and and uh do you have something to say, Ben?

SPEAKER_03 23:43

Um with vulnerability, it is um vulnerability is a skill. Um and it has been manipulated into being seen as a weakness, and um that is not okay. And um being able to be vulnerable and embrace that vulnerability is how change happens and how people progress and then um become receptive to new ideas. Um it is something that I struggle with regularly with my patients. Um they're very, very defensive and particularly defensive that are in the state of high aggression. And um with my my office is about uh two miles away from CHOP in Seattle. And so um there's a lot of um, we see a lot of the protests that's going on, and my patients, um I try and remain very objective because first of all, I have to be for my job. Um, but second of all, just to get um a clear view of what my patients are struggling with, and a lot of their defense mechanisms are resulting in anger, and it's not necessarily placed at the protest, which is very interesting. Um, but it's it's causing all of these different types of defensiveness because all of their um daily routines is now being challenged. Um that's how change happens, is we have to challenge the norm, especially when the norm is not a norm that should be accepted or tolerated.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

It it's um it it's it's just like COVID and the masks, you know, we're all used, we're so used to that autopilot. And like you said, you know, that autopilot feeling or that um I forget what term you used, um, but using that um when when that all of a sudden is uh threatened or jeopardized, then all of a sudden you're in that vulnerable state or you're in that uncomfortable. Um one of the most recent posts I just put is uh don't get lost in the what, but truly understanding the why is what helps us heal, helps us grow, it preps us for the when. And where where that comes from is is you know, I I've had some friends that um I myself have asked for help. And when you ask them for help, um it they usually go right into, you know, trying to provide, well, well, this you gotta do this, you gotta do that. And when I say that, it's one of those things of like they themselves fall into how they've always the their exit of that feeling is to be able to jump into sharing their own feeling when really what's happening is there needs to be understanding of the why are we feeling this way as opposed to what trying to fix the what all of a sudden. So why are we feeling this way? That's what we need to understand, that's why we need to actually look at where if it's always the what we're jumping ahead too quick. We can't even get to the what yet because we're we're we we need to understand why we're feeling this way, and that's the area I feel like we always jump over um with our instinct, and it's very difficult even within ourselves, because it's you know, in in this circumstance, it's something that yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

You know, I see that I see what you're saying, but I see it a little differently because I think that um I think that the what is important. I think recognizing what this feeling is is important, um, and then understanding why we're experiencing this feeling. Um I just think that um people don't want to people aren't patient, people um don't want to take the time. Uh it's people are very ego-driven. Um, a good another back to fire spinning as an example. A lot of people have this sense, like they're like, how how long do you do that? Or like with working out, I'm really big in fitness. People are like, how'd you get your body like that? As if there is some innate thing that I magically was born able to do that's different than other people. It's not, it's really just a matter of taking the time, being patient. Um, we have to process, we have to develop an understanding, and that is the skill, right? The same with vulnerability. No one is born with an innate sense of how to do these things that are really difficult. People that are really good at them aren't some subhuman or superhuman thing. You know, I'm not a superhuman because I have a good body. I just took time to develop it. You know, and I think that there's this um, it's it's propaganda. The American market uh sells to you this idea that A, you don't want to be vulnerable, therefore, here are ways that you can defend yourself against being vulnerable ever. Um, like these cheat codes that can make you get around everything, and you never have to actually suffer and process it. And that's such an illusion and it's bullshit because we we all have to suffer. And even if you have these defense mechanisms, you're still gonna hurt somewhere. There's still gonna be cracks in your armor. Um, so taking the armor off and strengthening that which is beneath the armor is our our true defense, and then you realize you don't need defenses because you're strong enough. And I think the American people, without realizing, are indoctrinated to feel like we aren't strong enough from the beginning, therefore, we need these things that make us stronger, as opposed to actually building the things that can actually do that for us, you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

I think I and I I think it's on the micro and the macro level, micro being the subject matter. So it could be racism, it could be, you know, sexuality, it could be you know any of those equalities, even to you know, some of the things for me, which would be death. But I think it even goes to the macro, which is within our communities. Um, I think some of us get so comfortable in our own community, they feel very strong. But if they were ever to walk outside and go to another community that they were not born in, that they are not experienced in, there they would remove that. And I I think that's a whole nother uh uh experience as well, is is not only is it within, but I think it's also an external. Um, and the fact that you know we get so comfortable in our home, in our community, that because that's all we've seen, we feel like that's all that is reality. So when we're told there's something different, we have nothing to really go for besides the TV and stuff like that. And so all of a sudden, when somebody from the from outside our norm comes in, it then it kind of it's uncomfortable because we it it's not in our we don't have the information to adjust to that.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

It's a bubble effect, right? Definitely, I definitely think that's that's part of what I was saying about like um being kind of born into this platform that's that give makes you feel a sense of power that's not really there. And you know, trusting the universe, trusting the planet, trusting Earth, trusting your country actually that there are people, and that's not trusting that there's that everyone is perfect and good, but trusting that there are enough people in the world that are good, um, and and in in recognizing that there are people that aren't so good, um and you know fortifying that sense of strength that prepares you for the people that aren't so good, that is fed, that strength is fed by the people that are, by the people that do lead with love.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

I I think um I I completely agree, and I think one of the things that our world has really uh has unintentionally taught us as well, is you know, not to be, you know, kind of uh uh political in this, but innocent and tell proven guilty. Our minds should be thinking the same thing, but I feel like society makes you guilty then have to earn your innocence, even within your brain. So we're judging people before they even have even allowed themselves before you these before somebody even allows them to give them an explanation, they're judging the book by its cover without even understanding what's really inside. And there's a whole nother perspective into you know what's actually happening, especially now with um, you know, with equality being so much more out there and more open. Um you know, we we look at something and society already judges it, and I feel like it should be the other way around. And and that's you know, I think some of the problem in some of the walls is it's it people have gotten so easy to judging somebody and they haven't even done anything yet.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

Ben, something you were saying before makes me think of that um objectivity in your work, it's important that you stay objective. And I think that um people aren't taught objectivity or diplomacy, uh, which are some of the strongest tools just for communicating and connecting to people. Um, just because someone's a Trump supporter does not mean that I can't have a conversation with them. And frankly, you know, I could be in this echo chamber where all I'm hearing is of people that are woke and understand why Trump sucks. Or I could be uh equip myself with the tools to enter a space outside of my thinking and like a scientist, allow those things to only fortify my perspective, but without disrespecting their perspective. Because aren't those the people who I'm trying to heal? Like, am I trying to heal people that are already on the same side as me, or do I want to help people that don't see my perspective understand it? You know, it's a relief to have the perspective that we have. You know, we we are grateful that we have this perspective and that we're not in a state of um of fear, constant fear. That's that's kind of underlying everything. So that objectivity is like a such an important tool, the the willingness to listen to someone first and hear them and like you know, let them respond and um let it influence the what your approach.

SPEAKER_03 34:30

Go ahead, Ben. You know, I think that when we were talking about uh Nick with um the COVID-19 and how we're looking at external um things that are happening outside of ourselves, um we've been we as a society have been relying way too much on external solutions for internal problems. And so we are relying on all these external cues and validation in order for us to feel internally okay. And so um, kind of like what you were saying, Bryce, with um money, um us being having money as equals power, um money has been convoluted into meaning multiple different forms. It's money is love, money is connection, money is fun, money is all of these other types of things. And um, once that's no longer there, is people don't know how to function. Um, when we were talking about um the the why and the what, um, I do a lot of analogies in my counseling approach, and I treat addiction. And so um addiction is a disease. And um, one of the analogies I use is uh diabetes. Um, the symptoms of diabetes are people that are blind, they lose a limb. It's like that's the stuff that's visibly seen externally, and instead of actually being like, oh, let's get you a cane to treat the blindness or let's get you some glasses so it doesn't make other people uncomfortable, we actually have to look at the defect in the organ, which is the pancreas. And so, and that's the internal thing. And so once you address that, the symptoms go away. And so um, my job as a counselor is really looking internally. And um, if you're internally okay, external is irrelevant because you're gonna be happy, and that's why some of the happiest people I've ever seen in my profession are people that don't have money. They're people that are just extremely happy with having the experiences they have, um, the love that they surround themselves with, and they are very successful people, and that's the true determinant of success is being able to be um have that connection with other people and have that ability to see different sides instead of how much money you have or what kind of house you can afford.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

I I yeah, I I think um kind of going into that too is is with the objective and kind of tying those two together, you know, what I see that is is becoming confident in yourself or or uh um not confident in yourself but comfortable with yourself um and to knowing and and challenging yourself to always allow the ability to take what your mind is thinking and allow that substance to come in to kind of prove it or to be able to not prove it, but to give you a better understanding. So, what I mean by that is when you see somebody and you judge them to to be able to, you know, challenge yourself of okay, well, this is what I'm thinking right now, but is this really what it is? And I would actually then take that over to when Bryce and I had that conversation, is when we had our conversation, there were some frustration we both shared, but I think we both were at a an understanding to where we could look outside our own emotion. And if anything, the frustration was more in ourselves of trying to understand, and so in that whole conversation, that two hours was less about us being frustrated at each other and more about our internal frustration of trying to be able to interpret because the other person wasn't clearly understanding. Um, and it wasn't a bad, yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 38:17

Oh, no, what I was gonna say is um that is the key, um, being able to identify frustration or any other underlying emotion. Um, anger is a secondary emotion. Anger is really easy to deal with because we know that when we feel angry, this happens. And so when we're in that state, um anger is not the emotion we feel. We feel other types of emotions. We feel frustration, we feel depression, we feel sadness, we feel anxiety, we feel all these different kinds of things. And so, in your in your conversation, to be able to identify frustration is actually the most therapeutic thing you could possibly do because that's the core emotion. And once you can address that emotion, then the frustration can actually be attributed to something and or it'll go away, but then it won't progress into the anger stage. You know, the more you progress that aggressive state, the harder it is to think logically and actually look at things objectively. It becomes um really difficult for anybody to see another person's point of view if they're in that type of anger or rage or type of mentality, because at that point um it's almost past the point of return. And then that's where these it starts to escalate, and then people are getting hurt, and um, all this stuff is happening. And so that um identification of that primary emotion is very important.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

I think uh, you know, tying this actually back to blackness is that uh, and and also something that I said earlier, is that as a black man in America, I feel like you you kind of have this innate sense of knowing that it's not about you unless it is. Um, and I think that was one of the most profound things that I kind of came to the conclusion of I had inherently known about it, but it was recognizing it and what it meant to me that was uh so healing. Because, you know, I had to think like as a black man, damn it, it's never about me. Um but that's not a bad thing. Um, whenever whenever I am in a conversation with someone about something that I feel like I understand, I have to recognize like I'm not having this conversation for me. This isn't for for my ego. This can't be for my ego because energetically, I wouldn't do this to serve myself. This doesn't serve me, this is for you. So, and that goes for both parties, right? When you when you and I were having a conversation, um, I had just told myself, like, it's not, this isn't about me. You know, it is, you know what I'm saying, subject matter-wise, it is, but it's not personally about me. Um, it's about helping you understand. Um, and then you, we're, I feel like we're on the same tip. And that's why it's a lot easier, it's a lot easier for us to come to some understanding. Because when we get to a moment of frustration and we're feeling passionate, we have to recognize is this passion self-serving? Is this passion serving my own ego? Or is this passion because I really want you to get it? Because if it's because I really want you to get it, then I can come down a little bit, you know? It's like, it's okay, actually. Like we're we're going there. We're not gonna just be there all of a sudden. And if you're patient enough to take your time to go there, then just come down a little bit, you know, and and we can both check ourselves to do that. And that's what I mean. It's not about you unless it is. Because the conversation is not about you, but if you recognize that you're making it about you, then you have to do the work internally to um, you know, and that part is about you, you know what I mean? Like that part is the only part that's about you, but that's you between yourself and you, you know what I mean? It's not externally about you.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

I I think um that for sure, and it it um connects to that whole kind of asking for help again of like when you ask for help, we all we we often jump ahead and just try to provide the help because that's more comfortable for us. And what really what really needs to be done, like you said, is the person asking for help needs to get be given the opportunity to be able to work through that ask to make sure the question is set. And that's kind of I think what's happening now is is in the racism and such like that, is and and you know what makes it difficult is you know, if if somebody's asking for help and you don't hear the whole question, and just like we were talked about being objective, and you go right into an answer, well, you're jumping into your comfort zone because you're trying to repel from that uncomfortable to be able to hear the raw emotions. And I think that kind of connects too with with with one thing I wanted to say too with what Ben was saying is feel okay. It's my disclaimer to also remind people that okay is not emotionless, okay is actually standing within those emotions and feeling confident in those emotions um and not reaching the level of anger. So when we're having these discussions, understanding, like you said, Bryce, too, of where that level hits of understanding and frustration trying to work through something to where you just completely shut off and we're not working towards it anymore because those walls are going up because you're it you're entering too deep into a, you know, uh a area of vulnerability or frustration. Does that make sense? I think I I I I see a lot of this and I th it it it's really kind of uh interesting to watch uh, you know, from the deaths in my family to now COVID and then you know really bringing the racism stuff out um and moving kind of in even into kind of equality how that's kind of been out there with um uh LGBT and um those type of uh LGBT uh uh community and um uh uh it's I think it's really prevalent and that you know uh it's it's kind of goes to the same check yourself before you wreck yourself um where it's like you know it that's almost exactly what it is on every single time is like when you go to feel an emotion you know one thing I try to do is question that emotion like okay wait is that is that you know is that really what you're feeling um you know uh as I've explained sometimes as the three different minds of um you know the outer body inner body and then the mediator um and and trying to understand those and and never uh fully committing to one of them all the time um yeah I think it's really important to be able to identify your emotions um one of the things that uh I regularly am talking about with my patients is to not react based on an emotion um emotions are illogical um they come from they stem from a thought process or from a behavior and um the way that we view a situation and our perception results in some sort of sort of an emotion.

SPEAKER_03 45:35

And so when we're reacting on an emotion if it's a negative emotion or something that's possibly um like anger or something like that um we're not gonna get a good result in that moment. So it is important to be able to be like okay what am I feeling right now? And um kind of to touch on what you were saying Bryce like is this about me or is this about you? Because if it's about you then I'm not gonna take yourself. You know if that's a you thing then that's a you thing you can live in that but I'm not gonna take on take that on you know um it's that whole saying um not my monkey not my circus and so it's being able to like um take on your own stuff and so if your emotion's your emotion and it's stealing from your thought process and your behavior then that's something that needs to be addressed.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

Absolutely um I think something that I kind of want to bring up here and just kind of going back to uh I was saying like you know being black and having this sense of um frequently feeling like it's not about me is that there are many communities that can identify with that. As a queer person as well I feel that relative to the black community it's like you know trans and queer people even though our you know we're tend to be very marginalized within the black community you know we're still black. So the question is you know is it time for me right now is it time for me to make this specifically about my queer experience or can we focus on something that's going to heal us in uh in in a more in a more complete way that's not specific to me um so like I guess what I'm saying is that it it serves and and that's a that's another conversation in itself to be quite frank because I don't think that there's quite a balance that has been struck there. But um but the the the greater conversation is if I am willing to take myself out of this can my um the things that I provide to the solution ultimately still positively impact me you know it's kind of the difference between hit hedonism and responsible hedonism like do I need this right now or can I commit to uh putting energy into something that's going to give me something greater in the future you know like that I feel there will be a time for us to have conversations about everyone's suffering about ways that everyone is marginalized. I think that's that time is approaching rapidly but you can't start it's this I don't know if you guys saw yesterday um everybody was using that hashtag all countries matter how does that feel you know what I mean um but that's the conversation it's like yes I recognize that there is a greater pain but we have to deal with and I recognize there's a pain that is more specific to you but we have to deal with the pain in chronological order if you will you know if we're just talking about time if there's pain that's been happening for 500 years let's fix that first. You know let's fix the thing that has obviously negatively impacted our entire society first. And then we can start focusing on the other things. Then we can talk about the conversation about the you know um black trans women and and queer black people um because that's a part of it. Naturally naturally if we start where it where it hurts the worst then we will find ourselves in a progression I see you know we start talking about we're talking about blackness now well the next conversation to arise is queer black queerness and and transness in the black community and then the next conversation to arise is um you know um queerness generally speaking or uh or maybe it's not maybe maybe simultaneously we can talk about um disability and age in the black community and suffering and then talk about queerness and disability and transness and aging at once. And then we can talk about aging and disability not for black people for people of color generally and you know there is a progression if we continue having the conversation we will continue working our way through and we will meet everyone's struggle but it's about recognizing what has negatively impacted society the most at the grandest scale and work our way through that. You know and there's something to be said also for people that have fought the who have been practicing this for so long people who have willingly been quiet and not made it about them for so long. Why don't we get to that now you know how about we get to that how about we give them a chance to speak how about we give us a chance to matter and then we will work our way across the spectrum for all of the people that have had to be quiet um and it to in varying capacities of silence.

SPEAKER_01 50:43

So and I want to touch to that silence because I I think one thing that I I want to make clear is um when you say had to it's not like they had to in the fact of that because I know people are saying well you can speak up all you want and ask for help but what happens as a society is when you get stuck in that sense and you keep asking and nobody listens to that help and gives you a chance to work through it kind of like we were talking about and it turns into them all of a sudden you stop asking and you just deal with it. And I think that's one of those things too of of of dealing with this whole chronological thing as well is because I I also see the um uh you know with with black lives matter and then all of a sudden they turn it into um uh uh the uh was it the blue lives matter or whatever about uh the police officers um and then when they start to take uh uh the system the system and actually break that down and all of a sudden it the the police and their careers are being thrown at us well it's one of those things where that's where I kind of see the what and the why is if if everybody's looking at the police officer that put their knee on George we're not fixing the problem. And so but that is I I'm trying to get there. So I guess what I'm saying is is the what would be a police officer putting their knee on George. The why is we need systematic change. And to make that systematic change means everybody. And so unfortunately it means yes there are police officers that are good police officers but there has to be systematic change further up the line which yes everybody is going to change but the change is for the good um and so once again this is one of those things that I feel like um and maybe this is reaching a little bit deeper into conversation but like you to focus on on the problem um and and the uh um I think I know what you're trying to say like um if you let me interject are you sorry are you trying to say that um you feel that people are focusing on that specific action as opposed to focusing on the the greater purpose that allowed that to happen. So people aren't yes I yes there's so that would be the feeling that's the ask why the my pain is from this experience. Okay but now we got to fix that. And to fix that we have to change the system but to change the system means that everybody is going to be affected by this. And so what I'm saying is is those that don't want to have those feelings their argument is well the police officers have feelings so we can't change up there. Well it it doesn't it doesn't matter about that we have to change further further down there this the same thing as as racism when we talk about it as a white man is just as uncomfortable as it is for a black man. But to get there we have to beat that down because if we're always worried about what's on the surface we're not gonna get to the why we're always gonna be stuck on the what and that's where I'm I'm saying is is as a group you have to feel uncomfortable together and understand that you know we are not uh you know we are not individuals the world is way more than us and we if we get stuck into this bubble effect again and that comfortable then you get you get lost in that so what I'm saying is is not taking away the significance or the feelings from you know incidents of like George being kneeled on but what I'm saying is is we can't take things that are for example like the police officers' careers and such that and make that a a reason to not fix the actual problem.

SPEAKER_02 55:04

And that's yeah we have to recognize what's incidental and what is systemic. And I I guess I would I would kind of like rephrase that what I said before uh the what first I think it's I think it's more like what why and then what again right because first first we have to ask ourselves what is it and then once we've assessed what we feel like it is and this is just like uh the scientific prop method you know once we've assessed our hypothesis what do we think it is then we have to figure out why why do we think that and then once we've figured out why we can ask ourselves what again like now that we know why do we still feel like our what was initially correct or do we need to modify the what?

SPEAKER_01 55:48

Exactly and and I think it it's it's definitely a process but that process everybody's got to be open with and I think one of those things that I I'd even put in there too is you know kind of like with the face masks or even right now is you know this whole bubble aspect that oh well I don't have to deal with it and so it doesn't affect me. But what we don't realize is that we live in a society that it does affect us. You know you can say you're free all you want and that if you don't wear the mask it doesn't affect you. But it does because if you have to go to the hospital when you get sick that's going to be there or you know those type of things same thing with society um and and you know not understanding the whole system of how it's suppressed those um you know in the black community or or those uh um uh of disability or LGBQ and if you don't understand that and if we all don't do the work then there's gonna be a lot of those people who actually need the help and are not able to ask because every single time they ask they get shot down because uh everybody think you know uh uh retreating back to that comfortable state I wanna um uh so NF has a song called If You Want Love and I love their lyrics because it says if you want love you're gonna have to go through pain if you want love you're gonna have to learn how to change if you want trust you're going to have to give some away and I think those lyrics are just huge uh especially the last part if you want trust you're going to have to give some away and I think that kind of touches base on to that whole approach of you know uh um innocent until proven guilty that you know if if you walk into a scenario not trusting someone they have no room to enter so how are how are we as a society going to be able to do any good if we've already turned them off much of using information because we don't know rather than actual information. Um and and that's what I think society really needs to work on and and open up um and one thing I've really worked on myself is more on how I can change as an individual how I can actually feel comfortable in that pain and do that as a way to sacrifice myself for the community and I feel like if if we all were able to get in that that sense you know we would get further um in all these different areas of you know equality and acceptance and um understanding.

SPEAKER_03 58:43

Absolutely collectively across the um just across the country but just in general is uh it's very easy to identify problems it's really difficult to find solutions um particularly viable solutions that um benefit all and um I think that is the needs to be the primary focus is being able to find solutions. It is a structural change is needed it's a political change is needed. There's multiple changes that are needed to happen. It does need to happen individually as well. A lot of what we're trying to do or what's been kind of the considered to be the norm is um putting a band-aid over an infection and you don't put a band-aid over an infection you treat the infection you get antibiotics and then it heals properly so that way there's parts yes but it doesn't hurt anymore because it healed the way it should. And so our society's adopted this way of just being able to just band-aid all of these wounds and then just pretend like it's going to be fine out of sight out of mind and then things like happen with George Floyd and it's like no it hasn't been um changed it hasn't it's been using band-aids to cover this infection and um it has to be it has to be changed it does it has to it has to heal properly and it has to structurally be revamped.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:15

I I think like you said with the infection is even infections you know you a band aid is just one spot but even with an infection is a global change because you take in antibiotics and the entire body is you know is treated and I think the exact same thing is within our society is that we are all an individual sale to an entire body and if we're all not willing to make those changes you know walk into that you know give people trust get vulnerable with each other we're not gonna get anywhere the tip of the iceberg didn't sink the Titanic it was the stuff that was beneath the surface that sank that ship and it's that stuff needs to change it's um you cannot just deal with the stuff that you just see um it has to be the stuff that's beneath the surface like we have to look at all these different kinds of things and it causes change change needs to happen on the individual the social the political the physical behavioral emotional it has to happen all over all across the board and it's a huge task but it's definitely possible it's just people actually have to be open to it and that's that's going to be in my opinion is the needs to be the focus is getting people open to that idea um versus being defensive about it and then getting comfortable in their own way of life and then choosing that as the right solution and then rebelling any other forms of change.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:48

No change happens whether we want it to or not because um life doesn't care if we're alive or dead it's going to keep going. And so we can either resist change and be miserable about it or embrace change grow and actually live a happier life.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:04

Yeah so okay I'm sorry I don't mean to interrupt but I I gotta I gotta get out of here I got a pretty long day ahead of me but um it was nice to finally meet you Bryce by the way absolutely yes I love this conversation we should continue in our group chat and try to find things right absolutely thanks everybody all right thanks guys thank you for listening to reach out to Nick and the choose your attitude community find us on social media at choose attitude create life share your attitude with the world with merch guaranteed to encourage at chooseyattitude.com be sure to share us with friends family and colleagues and while you're at it leave us an uplifting review we'd very much appreciate it check back for new episodes until next time choose your attitude create your life